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	<title>Comments on: Factoring, Schmactoring</title>
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	<link>http://samjshah.com/2009/08/13/factoring-schmactoring/</link>
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		<title>By: The unreasonable ineffectiveness of factoring &#171; DoyleMath</title>
		<link>http://samjshah.com/2009/08/13/factoring-schmactoring/#comment-11787</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The unreasonable ineffectiveness of factoring &#171; DoyleMath]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samjshah.com/?p=1469#comment-11787</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] his blog post, Factoring Schmactoring,  Sam Shah took a look at how many quadratic equations of the form x^2+bx+c = 0 (where b and c are [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] his blog post, Factoring Schmactoring,  Sam Shah took a look at how many quadratic equations of the form x^2+bx+c = 0 (where b and c are [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lin McMullin</title>
		<link>http://samjshah.com/2009/08/13/factoring-schmactoring/#comment-1896</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lin McMullin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samjshah.com/?p=1469#comment-1896</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I did this a long time ago on Mathmatica 3. It took about 6 minutes to run so it was considering many quadratics. I believe I set a to run from 1 to 20 (since -20 to -1) would double the number but not the proportion. The other 2 coefficients ran from -20 to 20 including zero. Only those with relatively prime coefficients were considered (this eliminated any common monomial factors). 



It was a triple nested loop. not that much code actually, including plotting the results. 



With the results plotted as percent factorable vs. largest absolute value of coefficient (i.e. x = 1, 2, 3, ...20) the results approximated a corner hyperbola (k/x) approaching the x-axis as x got larger. At coefficients of 20 and less, only about 7% factored; and dropping fast.  



Unfortunately, I&#039;m not a programmer and not that familiar with mathematica either, so I&#039;m hesitant to try to reproduce the result with Mathmatica 6. If I find  the time ...



Hope this helps. 



Lin]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did this a long time ago on Mathmatica 3. It took about 6 minutes to run so it was considering many quadratics. I believe I set a to run from 1 to 20 (since -20 to -1) would double the number but not the proportion. The other 2 coefficients ran from -20 to 20 including zero. Only those with relatively prime coefficients were considered (this eliminated any common monomial factors). </p>
<p>It was a triple nested loop. not that much code actually, including plotting the results. </p>
<p>With the results plotted as percent factorable vs. largest absolute value of coefficient (i.e. x = 1, 2, 3, &#8230;20) the results approximated a corner hyperbola (k/x) approaching the x-axis as x got larger. At coefficients of 20 and less, only about 7% factored; and dropping fast.  </p>
<p>Unfortunately, I&#8217;m not a programmer and not that familiar with mathematica either, so I&#8217;m hesitant to try to reproduce the result with Mathmatica 6. If I find  the time &#8230;</p>
<p>Hope this helps. </p>
<p>Lin</p>
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		<title>By: John Scammell</title>
		<link>http://samjshah.com/2009/08/13/factoring-schmactoring/#comment-1890</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Scammell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samjshah.com/?p=1469#comment-1890</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lin,  I am very interested your answer.  Are you just talking about coefficients b and c in x^2 + bx + c and integral coefficients?  In that case, 7% would be about 118 of the 1681 possible.  Is there any way to extend your experiment to ax^2 + bx + c and use integral coefficients from -20 to 20?  I&#039;m not familiar with Mathematica, so I have no idea how much work that would be.  I&#039;m really interested in finding out how many of those  68 921 quadratics would be factorable.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lin,  I am very interested your answer.  Are you just talking about coefficients b and c in x^2 + bx + c and integral coefficients?  In that case, 7% would be about 118 of the 1681 possible.  Is there any way to extend your experiment to ax^2 + bx + c and use integral coefficients from -20 to 20?  I&#8217;m not familiar with Mathematica, so I have no idea how much work that would be.  I&#8217;m really interested in finding out how many of those  68 921 quadratics would be factorable.</p>
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		<title>By: Reva Narasimhan</title>
		<link>http://samjshah.com/2009/08/13/factoring-schmactoring/#comment-1678</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Reva Narasimhan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 20:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samjshah.com/?p=1469#comment-1678</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stumbled upon your blog and this entry on factoring. As a college math prof who frequently teaches future high school math teachers, here are my thoughts:

1) The most powerful feature of factoring is not the process itself but the fact that a polynomial can be broken down into linear factors (over the complex numbers).

2) An inordinate amount of time is spent on teaching factoring techniques, but as you can see from the grid, very few are factorable over the rationals. And it&#039;s worse once you go to higher degree polynomials. 

Much better to spend some time factoring, then after covering quadratic functions, recap factoring in general with connection to graphs and zeros.  Factor &quot;backwards&quot; from the zeros of the graph. GeoGebra can be a big help there. (I have a few activities of this ilk in my web site, under GeoGebra)

3) Even when the quadratic formula gives irrational or complex roots, the quadratic expression is still factorable :(x-c_1)(x-c_2). Here, c_1 and c_2 can be &lt;i&gt;any&lt;/i&gt; real number. However, most algebra courses don&#039;t even  go there. 

By the way, a small correction to one of the comments - if the parabola does not have any real zeros - it is not factorable &lt;i&gt;over the real numbers&lt;/i&gt;. However, it is factorable over the complex numbers - just use the quadratic formula to find the roots, c_1 and c_2.
--Reva Narasimhan
Assoc. Prof.  of Math , Kean University, NJ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stumbled upon your blog and this entry on factoring. As a college math prof who frequently teaches future high school math teachers, here are my thoughts:</p>
<p>1) The most powerful feature of factoring is not the process itself but the fact that a polynomial can be broken down into linear factors (over the complex numbers).</p>
<p>2) An inordinate amount of time is spent on teaching factoring techniques, but as you can see from the grid, very few are factorable over the rationals. And it&#8217;s worse once you go to higher degree polynomials. </p>
<p>Much better to spend some time factoring, then after covering quadratic functions, recap factoring in general with connection to graphs and zeros.  Factor &#8220;backwards&#8221; from the zeros of the graph. GeoGebra can be a big help there. (I have a few activities of this ilk in my web site, under GeoGebra)</p>
<p>3) Even when the quadratic formula gives irrational or complex roots, the quadratic expression is still factorable :(x-c_1)(x-c_2). Here, c_1 and c_2 can be <i>any</i> real number. However, most algebra courses don&#8217;t even  go there. </p>
<p>By the way, a small correction to one of the comments &#8211; if the parabola does not have any real zeros &#8211; it is not factorable <i>over the real numbers</i>. However, it is factorable over the complex numbers &#8211; just use the quadratic formula to find the roots, c_1 and c_2.<br />
&#8211;Reva Narasimhan<br />
Assoc. Prof.  of Math , Kean University, NJ</p>
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		<title>By: Riley</title>
		<link>http://samjshah.com/2009/08/13/factoring-schmactoring/#comment-1675</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Riley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 03:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samjshah.com/?p=1469#comment-1675</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is my first year teaching Algebra, and we&#039;re just exploring factoring now.  I have kids who can already factor in their sleep and kids who think &quot;2x+2&quot; ~= &quot;4x&quot; in the same class.

To keep them (and myself, frankly) interested at all skill levels, I&#039;ve been focusing on graphical factoring.  I don&#039;t have a writeup ready, but check out the ggb file embedded at http://larkolicio.us/blog/?p=50 , and take a look at the NCTM illuminations worksheets at http://illuminations.nctm.org/LessonDetail.aspx?ID=L282 .  I&#039;ve been having kids explore the properties of factors - what happens when a factor is zero, and what happens if factors of a quadratic are different signs, etc.  I like this approach.  I flew over some methods of factoring like differences of squares, etc, and then set kids loose on either 1) tons of factoring practice, including practice distributing for students with especially low skills, or 2) studying the significance of factors graphically and numerically for the kids who can already factor cubic polynomials analytically.

The kids exploring factors graphically are not limited to pre-made problems.  And they are automatically discovering things like the fact that parabolas with no roots must not have any factors (made my day).

 Please do proofread the NCTM worksheets before using them (I got a few nasty surprises during class).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is my first year teaching Algebra, and we&#8217;re just exploring factoring now.  I have kids who can already factor in their sleep and kids who think &#8220;2x+2&#8243; ~= &#8220;4x&#8221; in the same class.</p>
<p>To keep them (and myself, frankly) interested at all skill levels, I&#8217;ve been focusing on graphical factoring.  I don&#8217;t have a writeup ready, but check out the ggb file embedded at <a href="http://larkolicio.us/blog/?p=50" rel="nofollow">http://larkolicio.us/blog/?p=50</a> , and take a look at the NCTM illuminations worksheets at <a href="http://illuminations.nctm.org/LessonDetail.aspx?ID=L282" rel="nofollow">http://illuminations.nctm.org/LessonDetail.aspx?ID=L282</a> .  I&#8217;ve been having kids explore the properties of factors &#8211; what happens when a factor is zero, and what happens if factors of a quadratic are different signs, etc.  I like this approach.  I flew over some methods of factoring like differences of squares, etc, and then set kids loose on either 1) tons of factoring practice, including practice distributing for students with especially low skills, or 2) studying the significance of factors graphically and numerically for the kids who can already factor cubic polynomials analytically.</p>
<p>The kids exploring factors graphically are not limited to pre-made problems.  And they are automatically discovering things like the fact that parabolas with no roots must not have any factors (made my day).</p>
<p> Please do proofread the NCTM worksheets before using them (I got a few nasty surprises during class).</p>
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		<title>By: Pam Richmond</title>
		<link>http://samjshah.com/2009/08/13/factoring-schmactoring/#comment-1662</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pam Richmond]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samjshah.com/?p=1469#comment-1662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Does anyone teach factoring by finding x-intercepts (using a calculator), then writing the factor as   (x - intercept)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone teach factoring by finding x-intercepts (using a calculator), then writing the factor as   (x &#8211; intercept)?</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse Johnson</title>
		<link>http://samjshah.com/2009/08/13/factoring-schmactoring/#comment-1607</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jesse Johnson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samjshah.com/?p=1469#comment-1607</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i&#039;m later than late reading this, but...

i just found out last week that the new integrated algebra exam doesn&#039;t even present kids with unfactorable quadratics.  they aren&#039;t required to know the quadratic formula, or use it on the exam.

so that&#039;s just crazy.  

i thought this post was awesome, sam.  thanks so much!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;m later than late reading this, but&#8230;</p>
<p>i just found out last week that the new integrated algebra exam doesn&#8217;t even present kids with unfactorable quadratics.  they aren&#8217;t required to know the quadratic formula, or use it on the exam.</p>
<p>so that&#8217;s just crazy.  </p>
<p>i thought this post was awesome, sam.  thanks so much!</p>
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		<title>By: Walking Randomly &#187; The unreasonable ineffectiveness of factoring</title>
		<link>http://samjshah.com/2009/08/13/factoring-schmactoring/#comment-1413</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walking Randomly &#187; The unreasonable ineffectiveness of factoring]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samjshah.com/?p=1469#comment-1413</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] unreasonable ineffectiveness of factoring In his blog post, Factoring Schmactoring,  Sam Shah took a look at how many quadratic equations of the form x^2+bx+c = 0 (where b and c are [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] unreasonable ineffectiveness of factoring In his blog post, Factoring Schmactoring,  Sam Shah took a look at how many quadratic equations of the form x^2+bx+c = 0 (where b and c are [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Dyer</title>
		<link>http://samjshah.com/2009/08/13/factoring-schmactoring/#comment-1299</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Dyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samjshah.com/?p=1469#comment-1299</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Late to the party, but I wanted to chime in with a historical note.

This isn&#039;t the first time people have wondered if we should teach factoring. There was a trend in the 80s to do away with it and supposedly there were understanding problems later so it got put back in.

Some countries don&#039;t (now and historically) bother with it and just teach the quadratic formula.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Late to the party, but I wanted to chime in with a historical note.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t the first time people have wondered if we should teach factoring. There was a trend in the 80s to do away with it and supposedly there were understanding problems later so it got put back in.</p>
<p>Some countries don&#8217;t (now and historically) bother with it and just teach the quadratic formula.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Quadratic Factoring Mileage &#171; Mathing&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://samjshah.com/2009/08/13/factoring-schmactoring/#comment-1244</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Quadratic Factoring Mileage &#171; Mathing&#8230;]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://samjshah.com/?p=1469#comment-1244</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] figure out for themselves using calculators, Excel, or even Google Spreadsheets like Eric did in a response to Sam&#039;s post. This may end up turning into a lesson that&#039;s more about learning the technologies [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] figure out for themselves using calculators, Excel, or even Google Spreadsheets like Eric did in a response to Sam&#39;s post. This may end up turning into a lesson that&#39;s more about learning the technologies [...]</p>
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